Awaken Bible Prophecy Update 11-29-23: Revelation 12 – Past or Future Interpretation?

About a year and a half ago I spent some time thinking about the coming Antichrist.  In so doing, I considered thoughts from various Bible prophecy teachers who wrote books on the subject.  My Prophecy Update titled Antichrist Ruminations was the result of my survey.

From that effort, because my article was posted on Rapture Ready, that attracted the attention of Charles (Ken) Bassett who wrote the book: Can We Know?  Subsequently, Ken changed the book’s title to: God Says Count the Number 666 – Why the Church Can Discover the Identity of the Antichrist, which can be found on Amazon by that name.  He then wrote a subsequent book titled: Empire of the Antichrist – Why the Antichrist Will Come from Rome, which expands his thesis.

Ken and I started talking and became friends.  Recently I asked him a question that niggled at me when I read his books.  Here’s that question:

In reading your books, you spoke of the Jews fleeing to Pella, if I recall correctly, after the A/C temple desecration.  From what I can determine, the Jews might have gone there during their 70AD flight, but why did you choose Pella over Petra for the Tribulation run for the hills?

His response, and my reaction to it, are the focus of the Prophecy Update today.  As you’ll see, the issue becomes one of timing for Revelation 12 regarding the era to which it refers.  Does that chapter describe past events or future ones?

Maybe this topic is only one that interests prophecy geeks like Ken and me.  On the other hand, because there’s so much focus on Israel today – rightly so – it may be that this is more pertinent than any of us realize.

Transcript:

About a year and a half ago I spent some time thinking about the coming Antichrist.  In so doing, I considered thoughts from various Bible prophecy teachers who wrote books on the subject.  My Prophecy Update titled Antichrist Ruminations was the result of my survey.

From that effort, because my article was posted on Rapture Ready, that attracted the attention of Charles (Ken) Bassett who wrote the book: Can We Know?  Subsequently, Ken changed the book’s title to: God Says Count the Number 666 – Why the Church Can Discover the Identity of the Antichrist, which can be found on Amazon by that name.  He then wrote a subsequent book titled: Empire of the Antichrist – Why the Antichrist Will Come from Rome, which expands his thesis.

Ken and I started talking and became friends.  Recently I asked him a question that niggled at me when I read his books.  Here’s that question:

In reading your books, you spoke of the Jews fleeing to Pella, if I recall correctly, after the A/C temple desecration.  From what I can determine, the Jews might have gone there during their 70AD flight, but why did you choose Pella over Petra for the Tribulation run for the hills?

His response, and my reaction to it, are the focus of the Prophecy Update today.  As you’ll see, the issue becomes one of timing for Revelation 12 regarding the era to which it refers.  Does that chapter describe past events or future ones?

Maybe this topic is only one that interests prophecy geeks like Ken and me.  On the other hand, because there’s so much focus on Israel today – rightly so – it may be that this is more pertinent than any of us realize.

We’ll discuss all this in some depth.  First, let’s pray and read from God’s Word.

<PRAY>

Scripture:

Matthew 24:16

“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

Revelation 12:6

and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

Revelation 12 – Past or Future Interpretation?

• The primary issue regarding Revelation 12 is whether it pertains to the future Tribulation, or instead is a look back at 1^st Century Israel with events that occurred around the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD
• We can also speculate whether it might have dual application to both the past and to future events
• From Ken Bassett’s perspective, he believes this chapter solely deals with Old Roman Empire events
• The exception he makes is Revelation 12:4 that speaks of the original fall of Satan with his rebel angels
• Ken’s thinking regarding this verse is that it sets the framework for the scenario presented in the chapter
• I do want to say in my discussing all this that Ken’s overall thesis – that we as Christians can determine the identity of the Antichrist – does appeal to me
• I think that his arguments overall are very solid, and he presents a convincing case in my estimation
• What I’m contesting is Ken’s belief that Revelation 12 solely pertains to the past
• That doesn’t take away from his conclusions and the detailed examination he does to make his case
• For that, I do recommend reading his books I mentioned earlier for those who are interested as we’ll only touch the surface here today

• First, here’s a brief introduction of Ken’s thoughts to set the stage:

While some believe the latter part of Revelation 12 discusses the future Tribulation and the flight of the Jews to Petra, I believe that Revelation 12 has nothing to do with the Tribulation, the Antichrist, or the Future Roman Empire. Instead, I believe the entire narrative of Revelation 12 is confined to events that occurred during the Old Roman Empire (except verse 4 — the fall of the rebel angels — which merely helps set the framework.)

Hence, I’m convinced the flight of the “Woman” (Jewish believers) through the “wilderness” and into a specific place that “God hath prepared for her” refers to the flight that occurred in March of 67 AD to the city of Pella, where the believers remained well-fed and unmolested until the Roman siege ended in September of 70 AD (exactly 3 ½ years).

(Note that Revelation 12 never mentions the “mountains,” or the Abomination of Desolation, even though Matthew 24 does. That’s because these narratives are speaking about two different events.

• He continues in his response to me:

The fact that Revelation 12 is not talking about the flight of Jewish believers during the future Tribulation, but only about Old Roman Empire events, is signaled by at least three bits of data:

#1 – All of the events that are mentioned in chapter 12 took place at some point during the Old Roman Empire: the birth of Christ, the slaughter of the innocents (implied), the ascension of Christ, Satan’s wrath against the Jews (the siege of Jerusalem), the dispersal of the Jews throughout the earth (the diaspora), and the start of Satan’s long wait for the Antichrist to arise from the Sea.

#2 – The crowns on the Beast are time markers. They separate the Old Roman timeframe from the New. When the Heads wear the crowns (all throughout chapter 12), the narrative is speaking exclusively about Old Roman Empire events. When the Horns take the crowns (all throughout chapter 13), the narrative is speaking exclusively about Future Roman Empire events. Indeed, this is why the crowns don’t appear anywhere in chapter 17—it’s because you can’t use time markers to restrict a narrative that freely transitions between both eras, the way chapter 17 does.

#3 – There are too many discrepancies between the action described in Revelation 12 and that described in Daniel 11/ Matthew 24 for these passages to be discussing the same event.

• Now, let’s take a step back and look at what might be considered a traditional view
• As we do, we’ll consider Ken’s arguments in a little more depth side-by-side against that
• This will by no means be an exhaustive analysis of how Ken responded to me
• I’m cherry-picking a little in that respect so as to keep this Commentary from bogging down
• For anyone desiring to dig into this a little more, I’m attaching a separate file to the transcript which contains Ken’s more detailed analysis

• Tim LaHaye in his book Revelation Unveiled discusses his interpretation of Revelation 12, which I’ll restate in bullet list form while interspersing Ken’s thoughts – plus some of mine
• TLH – Chapter 12 introduces the second half of the Tribulation period by giving a heavenly recap of the great conflict of the ages
  • KB – Revelation 12 is not talking about the flight of Jewish believers during the future Tribulation, but only about Old Roman Empire events
• TLH – It introduces the fact that in the middle of the Tribulation, Israel will be confronted with the worst wave of antisemitism the world has ever seen
  • KB – Aside from the difference as to which era Revelation 12 points to, I don’t think that Ken would contest this reality concerning antisemitism coming against Israel
• TLH – Briefly discusses how female cult leaders have often pointed to themselves as the woman in Revelation 12
• He then quotes well-known Bible prophecy teacher Dr. H.A. Ironside, who says:

“I have learned to look upon this twelfth chapter as the crucial test in regard to the correct prophetic outline.”

• In other words, get the identity of the woman and the child incorrect, and you’re veering far astray from what God intended the symbolism to mean
• The correct understanding is that the woman is Israel and the man-child is Jesus Christ
  • KB – Certainly agrees with this
• TLH – In various verses, Satan is given several names or descriptions:
  • An enormous red dragon (v3)
  • That ancient serpent (v9)
  • The devil (v9)
  • The accuser of our brothers (v10)
• He is revealed as an enormous red dragon having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads
  • KB – This is an interpretation that LaHaye and Ken appear to vary significantly
• TLH – Identifies the seven heads “probably” – and I emphasize probably – referring to the seven stages of the Roman Empire
• At least in this particular book, LaHaye does not appear to identify all seven stages that he refers to
• An internet search gave this outline for these seven stages:
  • #1 – Age of pioneers
  • #2 – Age of conquests
  • #3 – Age of affluence
  • #4 – Age of intellect
  • #5 – Age of decadence
  • #6 – Age of decline
  • #7 – Age of collapse
• LaHaye indicates that what we would consider the descendent governing authority today coming from the ancient Roman Empire would be in its sixth stage – or head – today
• If this list is correct that would correlate to decline
• The ten horns are the Ten Kings who are dominant during the Tribulation
• They give Antichrist, whom LaHaye identifies as the seventh head, his power and authority
  • KB – Believes they represent seven Caesars with this being a primary key to his thesis for our ability to identify the Antichrist in our current time
  • Please see the attached file to this transcript for greater detail and/or refer to Ken’s books for his extensive discussion
• TLH – When the text details in v4 that when the great dragon swept a third of the stars from heaven, this refers to the original fall of Satan which Isaiah 14 also describes
• The result of this rebellion was not Satan’s final overthrow
• V10 indicates that he still had access to God’s throne by which to accuse the saints
• The depiction of Satan standing before the woman about to give birth so as to devour the child refers to the devil’s attitude ever since Genesis 3:15, whereby he would bruise Christ’s heel and ultimately Jesus would bruise his head, i.e. destroy Him
• This conflict of the ages reaches its climax in the Tribulation
• The child being snatched up to God depicts Christ’s resurrection where Jesus is at the right hand of God
• In context, Daniel’s 70-week prophecy also comes into play
• Jesus is cut off
• Church Age history begins
• That continues until the Rapture which brings Israel back into the picture so as to complete the final 70th week
  • KB – In Ken’s response to me he doesn’t address this, so I think everyone is on the same page concerning this original fall and its fallout
• TLH – In regard to the completion of Daniel’s 70th week, LaHaye considers v6 an event that refers to the Tribulation period and the completion of that entire time period
• Revelation 12:6 reads:

and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

• LaHaye believes that between v5 and v6 is the gap of the Church Age, i.e. a period of 2000 years
• He likens this to the Exodus wandering of 40 years whereby God provided food and water for His people during that period
• This is the time of protection for the remnant of Israel while terrible persecution fills the world
• LaHaye quotes Isaiah 33:15-16 as verses that likely apply to God’s provision for His people at this point:

He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly,
who despises the gain of oppressions,
who shakes his hands, lest they hold a bribe,
who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed
and shuts his eyes from looking on evil,
he will dwell on the heights;
his place of defense will be the fortresses of rocks;
his bread will be given him; his water will be sure.

• In the context of that chapter, it appears like a potential match between Isaiah and Revelation 12:5
  • KB – Revelation 12:6 is another verse crucial to Ken’s argument
  • Because of the fact that Revelation 12:5 seamlessly transitions into Revelation 12:6, Ken believes there is no gap as noted in the explanation by Tim LaHaye
  • He acknowledges that such gaps certainly occur in Scripture because many prophetic Words didn’t distinguish between near and far events
  • This is one area where I would dispute with Ken
  • The number of times in Scripture that the text jumps from a soon-coming event on the prophet’s horizon to a future one happens a lot
  • I see no problem with attributing these verses to a prophetic circumstance like that
  • We have only to look earlier in Revelation to the letters to the churches
  • The churches are typically seen in threefold manner:
    • #1 – Actual churches at that time
    • #2 – Seven different types of churches throughout history
    • #3 – Foreshadowing of seven different periods in the history of the church
  • In this regard we have multiple prophetic understandings coming from these letters
  • There’s no reason that Revelation 12 can’t also provide that same type of knowledge, i.e. that which was soon to happen, plus that which was sometime farther into the future

• TLH – Once we get to Revelation 12:7 everything ramps up with the war in heaven
• At this point Michael and the good angels cast out Satan and his cohort forever
• They can no longer access heaven, Satan can no longer act as accuser of the brethren, and he is ticked off
• He’s relegated to the earth where he’s reigned as the Prince of the Power of the Air since Adam and Eve gave him temporary custody of the title deed
• This leads to the announcement that God’s kingdom is about to fully prevail
• At the same time, Satan’s wrath is great because he knows his time is short
• He thus takes direct control of the earth offensive against the Jews by indwelling Antichrist when he desecrates the temple
• It’s at this time that the people of Israel flee to the desert on the two wings of a great eagle where she stays for the final 3 1/2 years while the Great Tribulation is being perpetrated
• The assumption here is that Israel is sheltered at Petra in Jordon – also seen as the area of Bozrah
  • KB – Doesn’t directly address v7 but springboards from there to v16 and v17
  • The reason I noted Matthew 24:16 and Revelation 12:6 in my initial Scripture reading was for this next point
  • Again, those read as follows:

Matthew 24:16

“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.”

Revelation 12:6

and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.

• The issue for Ken boils down to the word choices that Jesus speaking in both instances makes
• In Matthew Jesus says the Jews are to flee to the mountains, whereas in Revelation He says they flee to the wilderness
• When we look at the Greek, the words are definitely different
• Wilderness is Strong’s #2048 – érēmosin the Greek
• Mountains is Strong’s #3735 – oros in the Greek
• Here is what’s said about wilderness or érēmos:

Properly, an uncultivated, unpopulated place; a desolate (deserted) area; (figuratively) a barren, solitary place that also provides needed quiet (freedom from disturbance).

In Scripture, a “desert” is ironically also where God richly grants His presence and provision for those seeking Him. The limitless Lord shows Himself strong in the “limiting” (difficult) scenes of life.

• In contrast, here is what’s said about mountains or oros

a mountain or a hill

• Ken’s thinking is that because these word choices are so clearly different that Jesus is speaking of two different places in these Scripture references

• TLH – In this place the serpent attempts to sweep Israel away with a torrent of water . . .
• LaHaye says there are three possibilities for this:
  • #1 – Satan actually diverts rivers and other bodies of water to drown the people
  • #2 – He attempts to “drown” them with false teachings
  • #3 – The passage may refer to a great army that Antichrist marshals against Israel to overwhelm them
• LaHaye likes this last option because of what could be a similarity from an earlier time
• Recall that when Korah rebelled against Moses God opened the earth and swallowed him and his family
• Perhaps God will do a similar supernatural rescue and cause the earth to a swallow up the antisemitic army of Antichrist
• With his failure to destroy this remnant, the dragon in possession of Antichrist goes off to make war against the rest of Israel
  • KB – Ken rightly states that there’s no indication that God will provide food and water in the Matthew verse whereas there is in Revelation
  • Obviously, he makes good point
  • We like to see the same word used in circumstances like this so as to connect what’s being said
  • That doesn’t happen here
  • Jesus in Matthew is clearly speaking of the Tribulation with this flight to the mountains – which we attribute to Petra
  • Here’s one question: Will God provide for the Jews who go there?
  • I think so
  • If you’ve seen Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, then you’ve had a brief view of Petra – actually the first thing you see when you emerge from the walk through the canyon is the ancient temple featured in the movie
  • It’s certainly a mountainous area, but I wouldn’t hesitate to also call it a wilderness area
  • It’s an amazing place filled with caves and lots of places for the Jews to safely stay for a time
  • But there’s no food there – unless the stories are true that people have hidden food in the caves for many years in anticipation of this flight by Israel to this place
  • In the absence of that, why wouldn’t we expect God to provide to maintain the health and welfare of His people – many, if not most of whom – will be believers in Christ either before or after that time in Petra ends?
  • My bottom line is that – despite the word difference – Jesus could still be referring to the same place

• But what about Pella that Ken says is the destination for the Revelation passage for the Jews?
• When I read his books, I had never heard of Pella, so I didn’t have any idea what he was talking about
• It turns out that the likelihood is high that the Jews did flee in about 67 AD to Pella, which is in Jordan along the Jordan River
• According to the map I link to in my transcript, it’s about 3/4 of the way north along the Jordan River toward the Sea of Galilee
• For the Jews to flee there from Jerusalem, it would have been a fairly good distance to traverse
• Comparatively with Petra to the south of the Dead Sea in the former area of Edom, the flight there would require going through the Negeb desert
• Six of one – half dozen of the other – in my estimation
• Revelation 12:6 could refer to Pella for that initial flight to safety during those tumultuous years prior to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD
• But, again, for it to refer to Petra as a future event is certainly a possibility in my book

• I didn’t want to get too deep in outlining what Ken has concluded because it does get technical and this Commentary isn’t meant for that
• The issue regarding Revelation 12 becomes important if we want to potentially explore the idea that Antichrist’ identity can be determined prior to the covenant agreement
• An important point Ken makes in his books is that surrounding 2 Thessalonians 2:3 which says:

Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

• The key word here is revealed
• Ken proposes that it may have the dual definition of unleashed
• In other words, if we consider this verse in that light whereby Antichrist is unleashed, i.e. allowed to go forth in his destructive ways, then he could be known prior to that point
• Put another way: We can potentially know Antichrist’s identity today when he is bound by the restraint of the Holy Spirit
• After the Rapture is when that leash comes off, and he can proceed with his satanic agenda
• What Ken proposes is that the opportunity is there for the Antichrist to be known before our harpazo, but we may or may not be successful in identifying him
• It’s simply that God gives us that opportunity as believers to know just a little more prior to our departing the earth for our heavenly journey if we diligently seek it
• I think it’s an intriguing idea
• Ken tells me he’s got more to say when we’re hopefully able to meet
• Stay tuned for if we’re able to do so

Attachment: Ken Bassett’s email response with greater insight to his thinking on this topic:

Question About Pella vs Petra