Awaken Bible Prophecy Update 7-19-23: The Puzzling Mindset of Post-Tribbers

I’m not sure what it is about many post-Tribulation Rapture believers, but there is some number of them that are just plain mean.  They are so invested in their post-Trib doctrine that true believers in the church today must go through the Tribulation in order to be real believers, that they unpleasantly attack those who don’t agree.  If you don’t think post-Trib is a Biblical position and have no desire to experience the horrors of this coming time that will consume the entire earth, then many declare you’re not part of the Bride of Christ, i.e. you’re a false believer who is going to hell.  (Note: I’m not saying that all post-Tribbers act like this or say these things, but there are enough of them, and they are often quite vocal.)

Add to this their thinking that everything God was going to do with Israel is already done, and that the church shows up throughout the book of Revelation chapters 6-19.  In other words, all promises related to the people and the land of Israel that the OT prophets wrote of, and the Apostle John relates in Revelation concerning God’s Chosen People, aren’t really about them at all.

Because we who believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture of the church also read the Bible very differently and understand fully that God still has much work to do with the Jewish people, we are told that we’re liars and spawns of Satan.

Hard to imagine that fellow Christians could be so un-Christ-like isn’t it?  Today, I’ll prove that to you by discussing a series of comments that were made on my Rumble channel in response to a Prophecy Update I did in February of this year titled: A Controversial Rapture Discussion.

Now, the premise of my Rapture thesis is one that is indeed controversial with many good Christian believers standing on one side or the other of what I discussed.  Regardless, the fact that we do have disagreement among us on certain aspects of the Rapture as I discussed hasn’t elicited any hostility.  That’s the difference in the issue regarding pre- and post- Trib positions.  Numerous times I’ve been attacked by post-Tribbers along the lines that I’ll speak of today.  And I know I’m not alone.  Many other pre-Trib Bible prophecy teachers have been savaged in the manner that you’ll see shortly.

What is it with these people?  I don’t really know, but I’ll tell you that the oil of unity among brothers seen in Psalm 133:2 certainly seems to be missing with them.

Transcript:

I’m not sure what it is about many post-Tribulation Rapture believers, but there is some number of them that are just plain mean.  They are so invested in their post-Trib doctrine that true believers in the church today must go through the Tribulation in order to be real believers, that they unpleasantly attack those who don’t agree.  If you don’t think post-Trib is a Biblical position and have no desire to experience the horrors of this coming time that will consume the entire earth, then many declare you’re not part of the Bride of Christ, i.e. you’re a false believer who is going to hell.  (Note: I’m not saying that all post-Tribbers act like this or say these things, but there are enough of them, and they are often quite vocal.)

Add to this their thinking that everything God was going to do with Israel is already done, and that the church shows up throughout the book of Revelation chapters 6-19.  In other words, all promises related to the people and the land of Israel that the OT prophets wrote of, and the Apostle John relates in Revelation concerning God’s Chosen People, aren’t really about them at all.

Because we who believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture of the church also read the Bible very differently and understand fully that God still has much work to do with the Jewish people, we are told that we’re liars and spawns of Satan.

Hard to imagine that fellow Christians could be so un-Christ-like isn’t it?  Today, I’ll prove that to you by discussing a series of comments that were made on my Rumble channel in response to a Prophecy Update I did in February of this year titled: A Controversial Rapture Discussion.

Now, the premise of my Rapture thesis is one that is indeed controversial with many good Christian believers standing on one side or the other of what I discussed.  Regardless, the fact that we do have disagreement among us on certain aspects of the Rapture as I discussed hasn’t elicited any hostility.  That’s the difference in the issue regarding pre- and post- Trib positions.  Numerous times I’ve been attacked by post-Tribbers along the lines that I’ll speak of today.  And I know I’m not alone.  Many other pre-Trib Bible prophecy teachers have been savaged in the manner that you’ll see shortly.

What is it with these people?  I don’t really know, but I’ll tell you that the oil of unity among brothers seen in Psalm 133:2 certainly seems to be missing with them.

We’ll get to all this momentarily.  First, we’ll pray and read from God’s Word.

<PRAY>

Psalm 133:1-3:

Behold, how good and pleasant it is
when brothers dwell in unity!
It is like the precious oil on the head,
running down on the beard,
on the beard of Aaron,
running down on the collar of his robes!
It is like the dew of Hermon,
which falls on the mountains of Zion!
For there the Lord has commanded the blessing,
life forevermore.

The Puzzling Mindset of Post-Tribbers

• Unity among all believers is a God-ordained utopian concept that will actually only happen during the Millennial reign of Christ
• For now, because of denominational and doctrinal differences, it’s simply not possible, despite the urging of God for us to have that kind of unity
• The problem is exacerbated when those with certain beliefs attack others in a less than Christ-like manner
• Is it not possible for us to hold different interpretations of Scripture and still be civil?
• Yes, among some groups
• Others, not so much
• This is the issue I’m highlighting today – specifically what I’ve experienced a number of times for my outspoken advocacy of the pre-Tribulation Rapture
• On February 22, 2023 my Prophecy Update titled A Controversial Rapture Position actually didn’t garner too much opposition despite the amount of comments
• The reason for this is that I challenged folks to provide well-reasoned, articulate discussion, because far too often all I get as rebuttal is a bunch of Scripture thrown at me with no real clear or coherent argument contending why I’m wrong in what I say
• To my surprise, just recently – about four months from the original post – a person watched the video and commented to me
• Since this was public on Rumble, I’ll name the screen name as I have it
• The commenter goes by the handle redreba
• My obvious assumption is that this is a red-headed woman by the name of Reba – so in my discussion I’ll simply refer to her as Reba
• So as not to take what she says out of context, I’ll provide our entire exchange and comment along the way

redreba

Rapture equals salvation. Yes, that’s what the pre-tribbers believe because all they care about is their flesh. They won’t lay down their life for Christ, they follow a get out of tribulation free Christ that doesn’t exist. Salvation is salvation, and pre-tribbers cheapen it [salvation] beyond recognition, because they just want an easy flesh life. And they refuse to read scripture, which is so easily clear and totally goes against their delusions. Bible is EXTREMELY clear that the GREAT tribulation is only 42 months (Rev. 13:5, Daniel 12:11-12), and that Jesus gets his ONE and ONLY BRIDE at his second coming, Rosh Hashanah. All eyes will see him and this. 2 Thessalonians 2, Matthew 24:29-31, Luke 17-32 onward (the taken away are not pre-trib rapture lol, they are killed by God’s wrath, you WANT to be left behind), all of Revelation which are different views of the same events, with back story epilogue, Daniel 12. Revelation alone is the whole story of God, period. Philadelphia needs to pray to be KEPT (that word in the Greek means protected/guarded, NOT removed from someplace) from the hours of temptation; only Philly, the other churches don’t have a prayer to escape tribulation. God’s character has always been to protect his bride/own, while he pours out his wrath. Noah, Lot, Israelite in Egypt, Israelites fleeing Egypt, etc. God does NOT change his character, nor is he a liar. He said he will get his bride at the end when he comes. Period. Matthew 24: 29-31

• The thesis in my Prophecy Update was that with the majority of pre-Tribulation Rapture believers, the idea they hold to is that Salvation = Rapture
• In other words, if a person is saved, he will be pre-Trib Raptured regardless of how carnal his life
• I contested this thinking, but Reba had a different agenda
• As you can see, she completely denies a pre-Tribulation Rapture all-together
• What is worse is her attitude toward those of us who hold this position, however one views my thesis
• In Reba’s estimation we pre-Tribbers are completely living in the flesh and have no love for Christ since we refuse to lay down our lives for Him
• In Reba’s words, our belief as pre-Tribbers makes us think we’ve got a “get out of tribulation free Christ that doesn’t exist”
• Thus, we believe in a Jesus that we’ve conjured up in our minds
• Why?
• Because we don’t read the Bible like she does with such devotion and understanding
• Reba is correct that the Great Tribulation is indeed 42 months
• I suspect, however, that she doesn’t think there is a 3 1/2 year (42 month) period prior to this
• She then plainly states her post-Tribulation belief:
• “Jesus gets his ONE and ONLY BRIDE at his second coming, Rosh Hashanah”
• Thus, the church is going through the Tribulation
• For Reba, there is no distinction in Revelation regarding different groups of believers mentioned – all are the same, i.e. the Bride of Christ whom Jesus rescues at the Jewish Celebration of Rosh Hashanah
• Note: This is interesting in itself since, as you’ll see, Reba denies Israel’s place in all this
• That being the case, what’s the point or significance of Christ’s 2^nd coming at Rosh Hashanah?
• But I digress
• Reba turns our Blessed Hope on its ear by stating that anyone taken away, i.e. in her mind theoretically Raptured, will actually be killed because of having incurred God’s wrath
• We should want to remain on earth, i.e. to be left behind
• To be martyred is the Blessed Hope! Hallelujah!
• Her perspective is that the church of Philadelphia is simply kept somehow – guarded or protected – from the horrors of the Tribulation – not removed from it
• How does this happen?
• Reba, of course, can’t say because there’s nothing textually to support her idea
• There’s no mention in Scripture of a Goshen-like shield for the church she thinks is providentially left behind and how that compares with all that’s happening to the unbelieving world
• Her proof text is Matthew 24:29-31 which is the description Jesus gives His disciples of what occurs at His 2^nd coming
• But, of course, this doesn’t prove whatsoever that there is no pre-Trib Rapture
• In response to Reba’s initial points, I responded back to her as follows:

gritter3390

I think many people fail to see and understand the difference between tribulation in this world and THE Tribulation. There is no comparison. THE Tribulation is for the redemption of Israel first and punishment upon the UNBELIEVING world second. Where does a true believer today fit into those two categories?

• This indeed is the major issue with people who hold a position like Reba’s
• They don’t distinguish between persecution in the world that is a natural result of believing in Jesus Christ for one’s salvation because He is the only true God, and the times that are to come identified as Jacob’s Trouble, i.e. THE Tribulation that will come upon the entire earth
• Jesus stated clearly that when we believe in Him, we will suffer persecution
• Is it bad; is it horrible in many instances?
• Absolutely!
• But nowhere in the Bible for normal believers in normal times does it describe the level of persecution amidst the copious judgment plagues that are coming such that ALL believers are at risk of having their heads decapitated
• I noticed in Reba’s comment that it appeared there was a dismissal of Israel in her thinking, so I wanted to emphasize the importance of God’s Holy Land and His people
• Of course, my other point is that there is a very big difference in how God sees the world during the Tribulation versus today
• Everyone in those seven years is initially considered part of the unbelieving world – both Jews and Gentiles
• Note what Zephaniah 1:17 says in this regard:

I will bring distress on mankind,
    so that they shall walk like the blind,
    because they have sinned against the Lord;
their blood shall be poured out like dust,
    and their flesh like dung.

• As such, the judgments are for unbelievers – those who disregard and hate God – and we have no part in the world at that time
• In response, Reba got more emphatic:

redreba

Nope, nope and nope. Tell that to all of the martyrs for God through the past 2000 years. Nowhere in the bible does it say a great tribulation is for Israel to be redeemed. Christ died for Israel to be redeemed, and they are saved only if they repent and believe, through all the ages. Zionism is a lie from Satan, not Biblical. Daniel 9 is clear that the age of the Jews was completed, all 70 weeks fulfilled just like God said it would play out. The Great Tribulation is like every other event before, except now like days of Noah, once again on a whole earth scale. The bride is saved in an ark WHILE the wrath of God is poured out. They don’t happen in isolation. Where does the believer fit in? Just like God tells us, we are the two witnesses the lampstand (non Messianics) and the olive tree (Messianics), we are binding and loosing during the tribulation and many of us will be overcome/killed by the BEAST system (Revelation 13:7). The bride is the bride and has always been subject to persecution. Jesus said follow me, take up your cross, not “get out of tribulation free at the end because I deem you better than the rest of human history bride”. Please. Matthew 24: 29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2, Daniel 12, all of Revelation. It’s blatantly clear where the bride is (on earth) during tribulation, and what will be going on. Jesus gave prophecy for a reason, and of course those who serve Satan or haven’t repented so can’t see truth of scripture, twist the scripture to serve their wicked love of their own flesh, saving their own skin.

• Reba equates all persecution through the ages with that which is coming in the Tribulation
• There’s no distinction in her mind
• Unfortunately, she then begins treading on very dangerous ground:
• “Nowhere in the bible does it say a great tribulation is for Israel to be redeemed”
• “Zionism is a lie from Satan, not Biblical”
• Whoa!
• Reba just discounted literally all the Old Testament prophecies by the prophets of God regarding His promises for the redemption of Israel
• How about Amos 9:14-15?

I will restore the fortunes of my people Israel,
    and they shall rebuild the ruined cities and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and drink their wine,
    and they shall make gardens and eat their fruit.
I will plant them on their land,
    and they shall never again be uprooted
    out of the land that I have given them,”
says the Lord your God.

• Or, what about Hosea 14:4-7?

I will heal their apostasy;
    I will love them freely,
    for my anger has turned from them.
I will be like the dew to Israel;
    he shall blossom like the lily;
    he shall take root like the trees of Lebanon;
his shoots shall spread out;
    his beauty shall be like the olive,
    and his fragrance like Lebanon.
They shall return and dwell beneath my shadow;
    they shall flourish like the grain;
they shall blossom like the vine;
    their fame shall be like the wine of Lebanon.

• And just one more among many from Isaiah 62:1-4:

For Zion’s sake I will not keep silent,
    and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not be quiet,
until her righteousness goes forth as brightness,
    and her salvation as a burning torch.
The nations shall see your righteousness,
    and all the kings your glory,
and you shall be called by a new name
    that the mouth of the Lord will give.
You shall be a crown of beauty in the hand of the Lord,
    and a royal diadem in the hand of your God.
You shall no more be termed Forsaken,
    and your land shall no more be termed Desolate,
but you shall be called My Delight Is in Her,
    and your land Married;
for the Lord delights in you,
    and your land shall be married.

• The OT is chock-full of promises like this for Israel
• Oh my! – We’re not supposed to be Zionists
• What is the definition of Zionism?
• Here’s one from the ADL, an organization that states the desire to stop the defamation of the Jewish people:

Zionism is the movement for the self-determination and statehood for the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, the land of Israel. The vast majority of Jews around the world feel a connection or kinship with Israel, whether or not they explicitly identify as Zionists, and regardless of their opinions on the policies of the Israeli government.

• Here’s another from Heyalma, an Israeli pop-culture website:

Post-1948 Zionism — arguably what most people consider the definition of Zionism today — can be simply defined as the belief that the State of Israel has a right to exist, that Jews have the right to self-determination. (This definition is up for debate, though.)

Pre-1948 Zionism is a little bit more complex. To sum, it was the general movement to establish a Jewish state. The modern state of Israel is therefore the culmination of Zionism, the Jewish effort to establish an autonomous state and end the diaspora of the Jewish people. Political Zionism was a product of many trends: the persecution of Jews in Europe and Arab lands; the rise of nationalism around the world; idealistic visions for building a new kind of society; and the conclusion that Jews would only be safe if they controlled their own destinies, to name a few.

• In other words, Zionism is simply the support of the Jewish people to have and live in their ancient land of Israel
• It is not necessarily political support of any one Jewish government policy over another except for the right of Israel to exist
• If that’s from Satan, then the entire Bible is written by him
• This gives you a strong understanding as to how wrong Reba is in her views
• Reba then goes on to allegorize the identity of the Two Witnesses
• Rather than actual individuals such as Moses, Elijah, or Enoch – in Reba’s belief system they stand as a symbol for believers, both Jewish (Messianic) and Gentiles (non-Messianic)
• Then Reba goes off the deep end
• I had someone else a couple years ago propound this idea to me, and I was simply floored
• What that person said – as Reba is basically saying – was that he was looking forward to the Tribulation because during that time – as a believer in the midst of it – he and others would be calling down the various judgments of God and determining where the plagues should be sent
• He literally said it would be a blast and the best time ever to be alive
• All this because – just like Reba – he believed that the prophecies concerning the Two Witnesses described in Revelation 11 were symbolic of the believing church which is going through the Tribulation
• Thus, all that they do as outlined in Revelation 11:5-6 is what this fellow and Reba will be doing:

And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. 

• These people like the other fellow and Reba really want to go through the Trib to lay out a bunch of people so they get the justice coming to them
• How about that for an arrogant power trip?
• So much for the Biblical concept that “Vengeance is Mine, said the Lord.”
• Finishing up this part of Reba’s comments, she then insults pre-Tribbers by saying:
• “. . . those who serve Satan or haven’t repented so can’t see truth of scripture, twist the scripture to serve their wicked love of their own flesh, saving their own skin”
• Why would she say this?
• Because that’s what she thinks of us who don’t hold her view of Scripture
• Of course, I couldn’t leave well enough alone, so I tried one more time:

gritter3390

Sorry, you’re simply wrong. You’re missing the entire point of the prophets speaking of the redemption of Israel plus Paul “to the Jew first, then the Gentile.” See Zechariah 13 with 1/3 of Israel saved. There is also no mention of the church in Revelation beginning chapter 6 – 19; there’s a reason for that. You are very close to being caught up in the heretical doctrine of Replacement Theology that curses Israel. Be very careful!

• Indeed, the position that Reba has taken that discounts Israel and makes everything in Revelation about the church is Replacement Theology
• Here is a definition of this from Got Questions:

Replacement theology (also known as supersessionism) essentially teaches that the church has replaced Israel in God’s plan. Adherents of replacement theology believe the Jews are no longer God’s chosen people, and God does not have specific future plans for the nation of Israel.

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church.

• That sure sounds like what Reba is saying, doesn’t it?
• Here’s where things turned quite ugly
• Reba decided she had to show her superior knowledge and God-given discernment about people like me who believe in the pre-Tribulation Rapture of the church:

redreba

to gritter 3390: I’m missing the entire point of the prophets speaking of the redemption of Israel? Ha ha. NOPE. Did not salvation go to the Jews first, it’s very clear in the old testament. Then it went to the Gentiles, the covenant with MANY (beyond the Jews to entire earth) being fulfilled. Since you’re not a part of the bride, I guess it’s really hard for you to see the bride ALL OVER Revelation, cuz she is there throughout all tribulation, until right before the last seal/ vial/ trumpet. the BEAST kingdom is allowed to make war with the bride and overcome her. Revelation 13:7, 12:17. The saints already in heaven (souls) are told to wait because the full number of martyrs are not yet in, more to be martyred. But you say that’s not the bride, lol. What a liar you are. The two witnesses are the bride, defined early on in John’s vision: lampstand and olive tree (non Messianics and Messianics). BOOM. Yet the bride is not on earth, lol. NOPE. Again, you lie. Matthew 24:29-31. There is Jesus flat out saying that he gets his one and only bride (he only has ONE) at his one and only second coming (he only returns once). BOOM. Again, you are a liar. I don’t believe replacement theology, I believe the Bible. Salvation went to the Jews first; fulfilled. Daniel 9, fulfilled by 70 AD. You’re a zionist pretrib dispensationalist heretic. Wolf that Jesus warned us about. Holding up a false Christ that doesn’t exist. Placing millstones around others neck. WOE to you, gritter 3390 with the Satanic numerology in your name no less; Got to ‘love’ that occult virtue signaling, lol.

• Reba interprets the OT Scriptures to believe that all salvation that Israel was going to get was given back in ancient times
• Now, there is nothing for Israel as a nation going forward
• There will be Jew and Gentile believers, but Israel is no different than any other nation
• Reba doesn’t believe in Replacement Theology – she believes the Bible – except that what she says is the exact definition of this heretical doctrine
• Since I differ with her, I’m an unbeliever in her book, i.e. not part of the Bride
• Not only that, but I’m a liar (three times over!) since I see the true church of today having been Raptured and only newly-minted believers in the Tribulation facing all that Antichrist and his minions in the One World Government, i.e. the Beast System, throw at them
• But Reba is just getting warmed up
• Not only am I a hated Zionist
• Not only do I believe in a pre-Trib Rapture
• But I’m a – gasp! – dispensationalist
• For reference, here again in Got Questions concerning dispensationalism:

Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy, and 2) a view of the uniqueness of Israel as separate from the Church in God’s program. Classical dispensationalism identifies seven dispensations in God’s plan for humanity.

• Add to all this the fact that I am a heretic
• There’s Biblical unity for you
• Because of this, I’m a wolf in sheep’s clothing for all I teach
• The Christ I believe in is a false one – not shown in the Bible as Reba reads it
• Worse, everything I say and teach is putting a millstone around people’s necks and I’m leading then straight to hell
• To put icing on this cake, because of the handle I go by: gritter3390, I’m virtue signaling my occult ties with this Satanic numerology
• Well, Reba, FYI – that handle came about over 30 years ago when I was working in the corporate world
• The last four digits of my telephone number at my desk were 3390
• I needed something for my email address at the time, so I made it easy on myself way back then and combined those digits with my first initial and last name
• Voila! – that makes a spawn of Satan

• Having received all that Reba shot at me and seeing how intractable she was, I decided there was no point in engaging any longer, so I stopped my end of the comments
• As Kenny Rogers said in his song The Gambler: you’ve got to know when to hold ‘em and when to fold ‘em
• When a reasoned discussion can occur, I’m happy to engage
• When ad hominem attacks are the only way someone can argue a position, it’s a hopeless strategy to take them on because it signifies they don’t really have a logical, well-reasoned argument at all
• The one thing teaching Bible prophecy has done for me is give me a pretty thick skin because of this type of personal name calling
• As the Body of Christ, we should be able to discuss the things of God where there are points of contention without taking the position that Reba did
• We can’t and won’t agree on everything
• Someone can see the pre-Tribulation Rapture in Scripture where another person reads it differently as post-Trib
• There are issues with each position whereby we can and should contend
• What’s unacceptable is what Reba did in her mocking, scoffing, accusations – fulfilling Bible prophecy by the way, just as 2 Peter 3:3 states:

knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires.

• Time will tell how the things of God play out
• As I’ve said often, because we’re so near the Tribulation, the Rapture is just around the corner
• I guess I’ll just have to explain it all to Reba on the way up when Jesus appears in the clouds to whisk us away from this alien world

Actual screenshots of dialogue shown above:

Redreba – Screenshot 2023-06-27 at 9.47.26 AM -1 Redreba – Screenshot 2023-06-27 at 9.47.44 AM -2

Redreba – Screenshot 2023-06-27 at 9.47.44 AM -2

Redreba – Screenshot 2023-06-27 at 9.47.54 AM -3